Overload Mode

Sometimes life happens.

This last week was one of those weeks. Things got out of whack early and there was so much going on that it just stayed that way all week long. We did some grocery shopping with only half a meal plan, Jenny got sick, being short on time and energy meant we went out to eat instead of cooking things at home, and everything just snowballed from there.

In short, we weren’t on plan at all during this last week. We didn’t do Simple Start, Simply Filling, or PointsPlus, we just threw it all out the window and did whatever came to mind when meal times came around.

We were both positive that we were going to have a gain last night, and since the temperature had just dropped yesterday and the snow started and everything we were primed with a great little excuse to not bother showing up to the meeting at all. People were talking about the roads being slick on their way back from lunch, so we had a great little fake reason for not going and we were planning to use it, too.

But as we left work and headed towards the house with every intention of climbing onto the couch with blankets, hot chocolate and puppy snuggles for a night of television, we saw that the roads weren’t slick at all. It was 15 degrees outside so it was definitely cold, but not something we couldn’t deal with. I started getting the urge to go and face it all, and Jenny was mostly with me (puppy snuggles and hot chocolate are her weakness after all). So we made a bit of a compromise and decided that we would go ahead and weigh in, but then skip the meeting itself and head home early.

Jenny: +0.4 lbs
Jason: -0.6 lbs

Once we stepped on the scale, we were both surprised to see that Jenny had only gained 0.4 lbs, and even more shocked that I managed a loss. Happy with the results not being as disastrous as we had imagined they would be, we went ahead and stayed for the whole meeting after all.

Even though we didn’t stick to any kind of plan at all during this week, you can’t help but recognize the influence that Weight Watchers has when you treat it as the lifestyle change that it’s meant to be. Even when we’re not following all the rules, the things we’ve learned still stick with us. When we went out to eat all those times, we weren’t counting points at all. But, we were making decisions of what to eat based on knowledge that we gained from going to those meetings and being familiar with the plan. The foods we ate while we were out certainly weren’t the best for us, but we still made educated choices that helped us out in the long run.

We’ve developed habits from being on Weight Watchers that help us make good(ish) choices, even when we’re being bad. There were only two meals during the week where I would say that we really ate things that we shouldn’t have. I started to share them with you, but I’d rather not toss a temptation out there for anyone that might be struggling while they read this, so we’ll just leave it at that. Overall, I’m more concerned about the amount of money we threw away by eating out for all those meals than I am with what I actually ate.

We’re going to do our best to get everything back on track this week. We don’t have a meal plan put together yet, so we’re going to have to go out to eat again for lunch today, but hopefully I’ll have the time and opportunity today to put a plan together and keep us on track. Jenny’s been doing a fantastic job with the meal planning for the last several months, but she’s getting a little burned out from doing it all so I need to step up and take over for a while. I’ve failed at the meal planning before, but I’m going to do my best to stay on top of it this time.

As always, we’ll be back next week to let you know how it turned out.


I’d Say It Works…

Three weeks ago, the day right after Christmas, Jason and I got right back to work losing weight. As you know, because he’s been writing the last few blog posts, Jason’s been kicking my butt on weekly loss since then. This isn’t to say I haven’t been losing a decent amount of weight. He’s just been losing so much more!

  • Jason -0.8; -86.6 total; -8.2 since Christmas
  • Jenny -2.6; -62 total; -7.8 since Christmas

As you can see, Jason didn’t lose as much this week, but he’s still kicking my butt! In fact, when you average out the last three weeks, Jason has a -2.7 average to my -2.6. And I’m not complaining. Before the holidays, my weekly average had settled in around -1.4. It wasn’t bad. It was consistent and I was working hard to get back to where I had been two years ago.

What’s significant this time around? Simple Start. The first week getting back to healthy eating, a decent loss is kind of expected. For the last two out of three weeks, though, we’ve been doing the new Simple Start introduction to Weight Watchers that Jason has already talked about.

So, I’m going to talk about what happens after your two week Simple Start.

After the two weeks, you basically have a choice to make. You can:

  • Continue with a similar program by doing Simply Filling, which includes more food choices than Simple Start (basically anything that is a Power Food, designated in their literature and apps with a green triangle)
  • You can switch to tracking, which doesn’t limit what kinds of food you eat, but you have to weigh/measure and track everything (which Weight Watchers can teach you about)
  • Get the best of both worlds by doing a combination! This is what we’re going to do, so it’s what I’m going to talk about most.

Back in the day when Jason and I first joined Weight Watchers, they had the Points program (tracking) and something called Core (eat specific foods until satisfied). The trick was, while you could change from one to the other, they wanted you to do so one full week at a time. Not the case anymore. The current versions of these programs are Points Plus and Simply Filling. The awesome part is that you can switch between these day to day during the same week!

Something that Jason and I noticed is that while we did really well five days out of seven, two days each week, we were just so done with the limited food list. I needed real cheese & sugar and we went off plan. Not terrible, but enough that I wonder if we might have done even better than the over 5 lbs we each lost during the two weeks of Simple Start. I need to get back in control. I need to get back to solid meal planning that we can stick with.

So this week? My meal plan is going to include mostly Simply Filling meals, because it really has helped us get off to a great start this year! Instead of getting tired of my meal plan, though, we’re also going to plan at least two days where we’ll switch to tracking, so that we can work in some meals that, while not unhealthy, don’t work as well for Simply Filling, to keep things fresh and interesting. This way, I still get to enjoy the things that Simply Filling doesn’t like, but I get to be in control, instead of feeling like I “broke my diet” by eating forbidden foods.

This is why Weight Watchers works. It gives you the flexibility you need to find a way that is sustainable so that it can become a lifestyle NOT a diet. It’s about finding what works for you over the long haul, not just to get to goal. In my life, I need to eat mainly healthy foods. But life happens and I need to know how to handle it by tracking when needed in order to make the plan work around my life, so I don’t get frustrated and go completely off-plan.

So what do I think about Simple Start? It works! We lost weight! But I am so glad that Weight Watchers isn’t only Simple Start. I’m glad they have a plan I can adjust to fit my life.

Simple Start Results: Week 1

We started the new year off by trying Weight Watchers’ new addition to the plan, called Simple Start. I’ve already talked about it a couple of times before, so I won’t get too much into the plan today, but basically it’s a simplified version of their Simply Filling technique that already exists within the plan and they tried to take as much of the “work” out of it as possible to give you about 40 different quick and easy meals that you can just throw together and eat as much as you need to and go on. They’ve really tried to make a simplified version of Weight Watchers so that even the people who don’t like doing the math required to use Points.

This was our first week of doing Simple Start, but I do need to throw a disclaimer out there that there were two days that we did not follow Simple Start, so basically we were doing Simply Filling instead since Simple Start is a two week program without any interruptions in the plan. But, we did Simply Filling using the tools of Simple Start.

Jenny: -3.0 lbs
Jason: -4.2 lbs

So, I would say that so far Simple Start has been a great success for us!

The only problem we’ve had with it so far is that it completely changed how we pre-plan our meals, which threw us off a bit. The first day that we went back to PointsPlus was because we had to go out of town to get our car repaired and we were there for the whole day and didn’t want to bother with trying to find restaurants that would work, so instead of stressing about that on top of the $2,500 we were spending on the car, we just went back to PointsPlus and rolled with it. The second day that we went off plan though was when we realized that we handled the meal planning wrong when we switched to Simple Start.

We had decided that instead of planning meals we would just buy all the things we needed to make Simple Start recipes and then just make things for each meal that we felt like eating. That was totally the wrong move for us. We cut out the planning mostly because Jenny’s planning method requires her to set portions and weights and all that, which Simple Start doesn’t use because you eat as much of the food as you need to in order to feel satisfied. You’re not counting points, so there’s no reason to weigh and measure your food to know the points values, and if you’re not doing that then tracking is nothing more than saying “I at chicken.”

Our problem wasn’t with the plan at all, it was all in how our process had been set up before, and how we choose to (not) address it when we first made the switch. To solve the problem, this week we’ve changed it up so that we are planning our meals, we’re just leaving out all of the weighing and measuring from the tracking as well. We got the meal plan together, and we did the shopping we needed for it last night, so we’re ready to put it all into motion now. We missed our scheduled breakfast this morning because we slept in and didn’t have time to cook anything, so we fell back to just having fruit at work instead. I’m going to do my best to keep us on track for the rest of the meals, though.

The first week turned out pretty well, so now to see what the second week has in store for us!

East Meets (South)West

Today I wanted to share a little recipe (sort of) for a meal that we came up with last night and then made for lunch today. The end result was basically a lettuce-wrapped burrito, but the idea came from lettuce cups. So we took the eastern lettuce wrap and combined it with the south western taco/burrito and it turned out pretty well.

Simple Start
I talked about Simple Start just a little bit last week, and we’ll probably get into it in more detail when we actually have the time to write it all out instead of just doing the quick posts that we’ve had to lately out of necessity/time constraints. Basically, Simple Start lets you stop tracking your points in exchange for making you eat from a “small” (quotes because it’s actually fairly large) list of foods that are healthier for you and take your body longer to process which means you’ll feel fuller for a longer period of time. You eat as much as you need to, so you stop when your body signals to you that you’re satisfied, so you don’t have to weigh and measure what you’re eating.

One of the things that’s good about Simple Start is that it allows the majority of the proteins that you would normally eat anyway, except that some of them have certain restrictions such as ground beef needing to be at least 95% lean or else you do have to count points for it. The drawback is, the things that aren’t part of Simple Start (aka. Simply Filling) are often things that you need to create certain meals that you might be used to. For example, let’s say you’ve got ground beef, shredded cheese, sour cream, salsa, assorted vegetables, 45-calorie bread and tortillas at home and you need to figure out what you’re going to cook for your next meal. The first thing I would think of in that situation, which is the situation we were in last night, is burritos. While we can have burritos on Weight Watchers while we’re using the PointsPlus method, tortillas are not allowed in Simple Start unless you want to spend your weekly points on them (49 points for the whole week).

The “Recipe”
While we were driving back home from Amarillo last night we were talking about what to do for lunch today with the things we already had available at the house. The two things that kept coming to mind when we were thinking about what to do with the ground beef was sloppy joes and tacos/burritos. Neither of those things can be done on Simple Start because sloppy joe sauce does not count as a Power Food (those are what you’re required to eat for Simple Start, I can give details or examples if anybody needs them), and neither do tortillas or taco shells. That doesn’t mean we can’t eat them anyway, it just means we’d have to spend our weekly points on the things that aren’t allowed.

So we started to come up with alternatives that would allow us to eat the meals that we wanted by making simple changes. We didn’t have any other type of sauce that would work as a substitute, so the sloppy joes were out. For the tacos/burritos though we were thinking about some of our options. Since shells or tortillas were the thing we needed to get rid of, I knew we needed some kind of base that provided the structure you needed and/or a simple flavor that did not contrast with the fillings but did add bulk to the meal so that you got full without having to eat a lot of extra protein.

Rice was my first thought, which would work well but completely lose the taco/burrito concept since you’d just be eating it all with a fork. The next few ideas all fell into the same trap as they were similar things like couscous. But then I remembered an appetizer we ate at a Mongolian grill a couple of weeks ago (not for the first time) which was lettuce wraps. We could use the green leaf or romano lettuce in place of a tortilla or shell, but otherwise treat the meal as though we were eating tacos or burritos.

I went for the big leaves of lettuce first, so I started out with something like this:

Then I rolled it all up like a burrito and ate it like this (though I did wrap all those lose ends of the lettuce better when I had access to both of my hands after setting the phone down):

I had intended to use the lettuce in a burrito fashion to begin with, so I was surprised when Jenny mentioned that this was the new way to have Taco Tuesday, and I looked over to see her eating hers like a taco instead. So I grabbed a couple of the smaller leaves of lettuce and made myself a couple of mini-tacos too.

Overall we both think this was a great success. It allows us to eat the flavors that we want in the way that we want without consuming the extra points for the filler. If we were really craving the flavor of the taco shell or tortillas then we could certainly go ahead and use them, but we don’t need to. The lettuce provides the crunch that you’re used to having, and it serves well as a vessel to get the food from your plate to your mouth. Unless we’re feeling those cravings in the future, I’m pretty sure this is going to be the preferred method of doing tacos and burritos at our home from now on.

As far as recipes go, it doesn’t get a whole lot simpler than this:
95% (or better) Ground Beef, as much as you’ll need to feel satisfied (we used 3/4 lbs)
Fat-Free Cheese, if you’re not doing Simple Start use whatever cheese you want (we each had probably 1/3 cup)
Desired Condiments, we only used salsa but could have added Fat-Free Sour Cream or similar products
Green Leaf Lettuce, or any other green that’s sturdy enough to support everything else
Taco Seasoning
Water, for the taco seasoning as needed (seasoning packet will tell you how much)

1. Brown your meat in a skillet on high
2. (Optional) Remove excess fat/moisture from the skillet using paper towels
3. Add taco seasoning and water
4. Bring the beef, seasoning & water to a boil then reduce heat and let simmer per your taco seasoning’s instructions
5. Take your individual leaves of lettuce and add meat, cheese, and other toppings as desired and either roll into burrito shape, or fold into taco shape
6. Eat until you’re satisfied
6a. Insert into mouth
6b. Chew
6c. Swallow
6d. Repeat step 6
7. Leave us a comment and tell us how fantastic it was

That’s all there is to it!

Holiday Maintenance Mode

In years past we’ve taken “Holiday Hiatuses” and learned to regret them. In fact the last “Holiday Hiatus” we took was the trigger that began our year and a half of being off-plan. It was really difficult to get our momentum going again and I am literally back down to losing the weight I had gained over that six week period of indulgence. I’ve managed to lose most of the subsequent weight I had gained following the hiatus, but I’m still working on the last 7lbs of the 11.6 I gained during the holidays two years ago.

This year? We’re not gaining. Just not gonna happen.

Our first holiday season on Weight Watchers, we did really well, even managing to lose weight. We would love to continue to lose weight this holiday season as well. So far, we’ve managed to avoid any weight gains, and just now encountered our first plateau (a swear word as far as Jason is concerned).

This week:

  • Jason 0.0 (-82.6)
  • Jenny -0.8 (-58.0)

Yep. I managed a small loss, which is why I’m blogging today. Jason stayed the same, which he hates so he’s not exactly in the right frame of mind to write an inspiring blog post. But I think that it’s not a good idea to stay in that mindset. This isn’t a plateau. This is holiday maintenance. So many people believe it’s impossible to avoid gaining weight over the holidays. We’re proof that if you don’t watch it, that’s exactly what will happen. Most people believe it’s impossible to lose weight over the holidays.

And we are doing just that.

True, Jason didn’t have a loss this week, but he sure did last week. We had two holiday dinners and he had a business trip this last week. We weren’t really on plan. But I managed to lose and Jason maintained. That’s good this time of year. This coming week is relatively free of holiday events for us (besides a ladies get together for me, during which there will be treat/recipe exchange – wish me luck, or even better share some of your healthy treats recipes with me!) so it’s a great week for us to focus on staying on our meal plan, hitting the gym (and our dumbbell sets at home) hard, and finding non-food ways to get in the holiday spirit.

We’ve got this – and so do you.

What are your plans for staying on track? Also, I was serious about sharing healthy treat recipes. Give ’em to me!

Post-Thanksgiving Results

We didn’t have a weigh in last week since it was Thanksgiving and our meetings here are always on Thursdays, so last night’s weigh-in was the results of two weeks worth of work.

We both enjoyed Thanksgiving this year by focusing on family rather than food, and enjoying everyone’s company while we were there. The only thing I bothered putting on my plate was things that I don’t normally have access to throughout the year except during the holidays, except for a couple of rolls because butter and I are old friends and we needed a nice place to chat.

The days of me filling up my plate 3-4 times and then hitting 4-5 different desserts are long gone. I did go back and get seconds, but I kept my portions small and didn’t fill up the plate either time. I had one slice of pie and one slice of cheesecake during the official Thanksgiving dinner, and then when we nibbled on a few left-overs for dinner that night Jenny and I both had two more slices of pie.

And yes, Weight Watchers does allow to me to eat 4 slices of pie in a single day and still lose weight. That’s why Weight Watchers works long term and diets don’t.

Time for some results:
Jenny: -1.4 lbs (Total 57.2 lbs)
Jason: -2.2 lbs (Total 82.6 lbs)

Since we didn’t weigh-in at all last week, there’s no telling exactly how we did that specific week. Did we have gains that week but then losses to more than make up for it this week? Did we lose that week and then gain some back this week? Did we lose a little bit both weeks? We don’t know, but it doesn’t really matter. The point is, we lost weight over a holiday break, which most people tend to think isn’t possible. A lot of people that are trying to lose weight stop their diets during the holidays because they have convinced themselves that they’re already going to have a gain anyway, so they might as well just give up now and then pick it back up again once the new year gets here.

Heck, Jenny and I have done that more than once, even while we were active in Weight Watchers. It’s just easier sometimes to give up and let loose so that you don’t have to feel like you need to fight all those yummy holiday temptations for weeks. It’s easier to give in, enjoy, and then try to pick up the pieces. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying your holidays, but it’s better to enjoy them in moderation and start the new year off with two months worth of successful holiday eating than it is to start the year off with a 15 pound gain because you decided that five weeks of cheating was worth it.

Losing Weight Over the Holidays
Losing weight over the holidays is definitely possible, and you can do it while still enjoying all of the things you love. All you need is knowledge of the food you’re eating, and the desire to succeed. There’s nothing wrong with eating pie, cookies, cake, brownies, candy, and whatever else you happen to go crazy with during the holidays. You can eat those things. You should eat those things if they help you feel festive and enjoy your time with family and friends. You just have to be smart about how you do it which most often means being smart about how much you eat or how often you eat it.

Thanksgiving and Christmas both mean pumpkin pie with my family, and in the past there were always three pumpkin pies made every year for each of those holidays. One was for the family to eat, one was for my father, and one was all mine. I would eat a slice or two of the family pie during the holiday event, and then I would eat my own pie over the next couple of days. I don’t need to eat an entire pie and a half to feel like I’ve enjoyed my pumpkin pie over the holidays. A couple of slices does just fine for me. One isn’t quite enough yet since I’m still all too familiar with having my own pie to eat, but I’ve made a lot of progress in that area in the last few years.

We lost weight during this holiday, and we will lose weight over the Christmas holiday as well. It doesn’t matter how many pounds worth of food Jenny gets in the mail from all of the vendors she deals with at work each day, how many holiday parties we get invited to, or how many goodies the family makes for the Christmas celebration. We can lose weight during the holiday season.

And so can you.

TGIF: Results

Last night’s Weight Watchers meeting was about the same as it is every year on the week before Thanksgiving, focusing on trying to get everyone to think about what they’re going to eat ahead of time so that the feast doesn’t overwhelm your waistline as well as your senses. There were some really good suggestions there at the meeting though, so I’ll talk about that a little bit.

I’m also going to talk a little bit more about the lifting program that I’m on now that I’ve been doing it for three weeks, and how I’ve used some of what I’ve learned from that to help design workouts for Jenny to do at home with the dumbbells that we picked up for here recently. I’m also going to touch quickly on Fitocracy and some of the things we’ve got going on there, a 5K that’s coming up here in my hometown of Pampa in a couple of week, and as always we’ll cover the results from our weigh-in last night.

If you have any tips you’d like to share for how to make it through Thanksgiving without going overboard, feel free to share them in the comments below.

Jenny: -1.0 lbs (Total Loss: 55.8 lbs)
Jason: -2.4 lbs (Total Loss: 80.4 lbs)

I was kind of surprised and not surprised at my number at the same time. On the one hand, I was surprised to see that I lost that much considering the lifting plan that I’m using is focused pretty heavily on building muscle which of course adds weight to your body. On the other hand, I’m hitting these weights pretty hard and doing my best to keep up a good pace and minimize my downtime while I’m there as much as possible. I knew I had worked hard enough to earn a loss, but at the same time I wasn’t sure how much bulk I was adding from the lifting and how they would counter each other. I’m more than happy to have that loss, though.

Thanksgiving Tips
Here in the US, Thanksgiving is a time for hanging out with family and friends and stuffing as much food in your face as you can before the day is through (or the turkey-coma hits you and sends you into unconsciousness). Social events in America are almost always based primarily around food and socialization. Occasionally, we even take a moment to think about whatever the event itself was supposedly built on in the first place, but usually it’s just those two things that actually matter. When’s the last time you really spent time on Thanksgiving focusing on anything other than food? Food is the big thing here, so it’s important to think about how you’re going to handle that monstrous feast without packing on some monstrous pounds to go with it.

One of the tips that our leader shared with us is to avoid eating things on Thanksgiving that you eat throughout the year anyway and instead focus on the things that are actually special to you. If your grandmother makes the best pumpkin pie in the world but she only makes it twice a year, then that’s something special worth eating. If your sister makes a killer casserole, but she makes it at her house for dinner every couple of weeks, then that’s something you can skip on Thanksgiving and enjoy it another time throughout the year instead. Things that you can probably get your hands on pretty easily throughout the year include things like mashed potatoes, gravy, corn, biscuits/rolls/breads that are store-bought rather than homemade, cheese & crackers and other similar finger foods.

Other tips included drinking water or diet soda with your actual food and saving things like alcohol, juices, and other things that do actually have calories or PointsPlus values for after the meal while you’re socializing or to simply avoid them all together. I know water’s not thrilling, but would you rather spend points on a drink that’s just washing your food down, or would you rather spend it on food that actually tastes good?

And remember that your stomach takes time to communicate to your brain that it’s full, so remember to take your time while you’re eating rather than rushing through it to fix another plate. Remember to be social, and have a conversation with the people around you while you eat so that you’re giving your body time to realize its full so you’re not overeating. In the long run, you’re going to remember the people you spent the time with and the things that you did more so than you will the food that you ate, so don’t get caught up too much in the food.

There are more things I could discuss here, but this post is already getting long and I’d rather see if we can spark up some conversation in the comments than for me to try to set up an exhaustive list in the post.

Fitness & Fitocracy
As I mentioned in my last post, I’ve been following a lifting routine called “Get Swole” which focuses on lifting a lot of big weights and taking minimal breaks. Some of the lifts I can do just fine, some of them I have to do modified versions of because I’m not strong enough yet, and some I’m so weak that I have to use the smallest weights I can find. After three weeks following this routine, I have to admit that I’m pretty happy with it. I’m not following the nutrition part of the program as I’ve said before, because I’m using Weight Watchers for my nutrition. The lifting though has been really good for me, and I’ve been able to see the results from it already.

Getting back into the habit of lifting weights has also had an impact on the things that I want to do. For example, a good morning workout at the gym makes me feel like doing things throughout the day. As a programmer, my job is to sit in front of a computer all day wiggling my fingers around to make computer magic happen. Yesterday though, when I got to work I didn’t want to be in my office at all, I hated that I was supposed to sit here hour after hour flexing nothing but my fingers when I could be somewhere else doing physical things. Heck, I would have been happy taking the day off and going back to the gym for a few hours for even more lifting and maybe some cardio thrown in just to do it.

Having a plan to follow has been a tremendous benefit. Before I started Get Swole, I’d go to the gym each morning and try to figure out whether I was going to lift that day or if I was just going to use the treadmill. If I decided it was lifting, then I’d wander around the gym looking for something that appealed to me, then I’d do however many reps felt good before moving on to something else. I had no plan, no strategy, no nothing. And the results that I got were just as unfulfilling. Having a plan and sticking to it is just as important for exercising as it is for eating. If you’re looking to start an exercise routine, I strongly suggest you find a plan online or get one from your doctor, trainer, or other certified professional rather than playing the guessing game. You, and your waistline, will thank me later.

When we got Jenny started on her dumbbell exercises at home, we weren’t following a strict plan. I did put it together with knowledge and experience, but at the time we didn’t know how often she was going to use them or whether or not she would even be interested in doing it more than once. After we got over that initial hurdle of her not being able to walk very well for a few days, we found that she really enjoyed it and she’s done a workout almost every night since then. So instead of the initial workout which was sort of a full body split, she’s now doing a different set of exercises every night to focus on different parts of her body much like I do with my routine.

We’re tracking our exercise on a site called Fitocracy which rewards your workouts with different points values based on the workout and a few other calculations that go on in the background and allows you to “level up” as you earn more points. Other people on the site can then go around and give you “Props” for things you do and say, and they can leave comments to encourage and inspire you to keep going. It’s a great community full of people at all different levels of fitness from absolute beginners to people who compete professionally in lifting competitions. The site is really great for encouragement, socialization, inspiration, and learning about fitness.

Local 5K
For the handful of our readers who are locals to the Texas panhandle, there is a holiday 5K coming up on Saturday, December 7th sponsored by Habitat for Humanity. You can click on the image below to see the flyer with the rest of the information. My assumption is that it is taking place in the afternoon rather than 5:30 AM. I’ve tried to contact the person listed on the flyer but haven’t gotten a clear response yet.

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